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External Changed
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TOPIC: External Changed
#1130
External Changed 2 Years, 1 Month ago Karma: 2
need help with 4 tough questions!!!

Q1. the ratio of James' age to andy's age is 2:7. in 8 years' time, the ratio will become 2:5. find James' present age.

Q2: keith and shawn each have some money. if keith spends $38, the ratio of the amount of money Keith has to the amount of money shawn has will become 2:5. if shawn spends $38, the ratio will become 8:13. how much money does each boy have?

Q3: in a pastry shop, the number of cakes was twice the number of cream puffs. after 90 cakes and 42 cream puffs were sold, the ration of the number of cakes left to the number of cream puffs left was 2:5. how many cakes and cream puffs were in the shop at first?

Q4: the ratio of number of muffins to the number of pies in a bakery was 4:1. after another 63 muffins and 46 pies were baked, ratio became 3>1. how many muffins and pies were tghere in the bakery at first?
Last Edit: 2009/12/27 03:26 By Chris.
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#1131
Re:External Changed 2 Years, 1 Month ago Karma: 138
Hi Shirley

Q1. This is a Constant Difference question. You can find very similar examples on Page 72 Chapter 3.5 of the P5 onSponge book.

Q2: You can use the External Changed (AKA Total Changed) Concept. The External Changed Concept can be found in the P5 ThinkingMath Book Chapter 3.7 Page 80.

Three very similar examples can be found in these links:
www.onsponge.com/forum/35-thinkingmathon...e/859-ratio.html#871
www.onsponge.com/forum/35-thinkingmathon...l-unchanged.html#981
www.onsponge.com/forum/35-thinkingmathon...anged-total.html#837

Q3 & Q4 Are also External Changed (AKA Total Changed) problem sums.

More examples in the forum are:
www.onsponge.com/forum/35-thinkingmathon...e/859-ratio.html#871
www.onsponge.com/forum/35-thinkingmathon...anged-total.html#837
www.onsponge.com/forum/35-thinkingmathon...ge/742-rate.html#755
www.onsponge.com/forum/35-thinkingmathon...nal-changed.html#543
www.onsponge.com/forum/35-thinkingmathon...-model-pr-5.html#374
www.onsponge.com/forum/35-thinkingmathon...r-using-mode.html#85


If you still have problems, post your solutions and I will have a look at them to see where you are going wrong.
Last Edit: 2009/12/29 22:43 By Chris.
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#1132
Re:External Changed 2 Years, 1 Month ago Karma: 2
CONSTANT DIFF QUESTION:
i've reviewed solution p73/P5 book solution for Q2, don't understand basis to break 25 into 5u nor 33 into 11u for example p72/P5 book example.


EXTERNAL CHANGED:
reviewd solution on p81/Q2, P5 book solution. dont' understand why its +5/-5 on each side as its not a concurrent scenario; its 2 different scenarios. besides for each scenario, either the boys or girls are leaving. could u pls explain.
confused why in the end, solution is:
boys : 1 u+5 =20+5. why +5?
girls: 1u-5 =20-5. why -5?


APPLYING MODEL to my initial Q2:

keith: shawn
{ 2u: 5u }
x13 { +38 -38 } x8
--------
{ 8u: 13u }

keith | 26u | 13x38 | 38x8 |
shawn | 40u or 104 parts |

14u = 190
i get a fraction, which is wrong.
Last Edit: 2009/12/29 22:45 By Chris.
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#1133
Re: External Changed 2 Years, 1 Month ago Karma: 138
Hi Shirley,

For the first question:



Q2. Keith and Sean each have some money. If Keith spends $38, the ratio of the amount of money Keith has to the amount of money Sean has will become 2:5. If Sean spends $38, the ratio will become 8:13. How much money does each boy have?

A. For this question, we can draw the two scenarios on a time line to derive a before and after situation. I.e. At first Keith as $38 less (Sean has no change) and at the end Sean spends $38 while Keith has no change (compared to the 'normal' state with the original amount of money). I have drawn out a time line which will depict the change.

With your solution, you have approached it correctly. I believe you have subtracted $304 from $494 when they should have been added together to get $798.


Last Edit: 2009/12/29 22:44 By Chris.
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#1140
Re:External Changed 2 Years, 1 Month ago Karma: 2
for the keith-sean problem, why is it add 304 to 494, not subtract?
Last Edit: 2009/12/29 22:44 By Chris.
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#1141
Re:External Changed 2 Years, 1 Month ago Karma: 138
Since Sean has a negative number we include the value in Keith's bar. See the explanation below ....

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#1144
Re:External Changed 2 Years, 1 Month ago Karma: 2
could u explain why if keith spends $38, that its +38 instead of -$38? for sean, i understand why as its spent hence -38.
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#1147
Re:External Changed 2 Years, 1 Month ago Karma: 138
Its a matter of perspective. If you look at the line I drew, Keith spent $38 as well if you are "at the middle point" looking left along the line. This is what the question describes: Case 1) Keith spends $38 - going left along the line; Case 2) Sean spends $38 moving right along the line.

However, you will notice that the question does not provide a ratio from the mid point perspective. Instead it provides information (ratios) at the extreme left of the line and at the extreme right (Points A and B respectively). As a result we need to "start" from either the left or right position (Point A or Point and "move toward" the other end. I have arbitrarily chosen where Keith spent $38 (case 1). From this point it appears as though Keith is + $38 to get to the mid point and then -$38 for what Sean spends (after case 2).
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#1155
Re:External Changed 2 Years, 1 Month ago Karma: 2
i still find it a bit confusing, quite challenging to explain why such assumptions are made. is there another way to solve problem?
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#1156
Re:External Changed 2 Years, 1 Month ago Karma: 138
Not sure which "assumption" you are referring to. In fact, I am just taking the information from the question and re-organising it, so not really any assumptions are made.

Let me try using including a model to help demonstrate how we start this question. The first picture shows the two IF situations (Cases) where the grey shows the $38 spent by both people. But they do not spend the $38 at the same time. They spend it in two different Cases - this point becomes important.

The second picture introduces a "midpoint" which is the actual amount they both have. (It's important to note that both cases say IF which means that it doesn't really happen thus the midpoint reflects the actual amount they have.) When using the Total Changed concept, we need a "starting" and "ending" ratio / situation. But we do not have one for this question ... mmm ... However, the question states two Cases, so we can create a "starting" position using Case 1 and an "Ending" position using Case 2 (because these Cases do not happen at the same time).





Using a similar example: Imagine that you and I have $10 each. Case 1) IF you spend $2, you have $8 and I have $10. Case 2) IF I spend $2, you have $10 and I have $8. Written as ratios: We have a ratio of 10:10. Case 1) the ratio becomes 8:10. Case 2) the ratio becomes 10:8. Now, if I want to show the change between the two Cases, like following a path from Case 1 to Case 2 you would have: Case 1) 8: 10 --> Case 2) 10:8, so the change is +2 : -2. So even though both Cases are spending $2 when we following the change from Case 1 to Case 2 it is actually +2 : -2. Yet from the midpoint, the actual amount we have, it is -2:0 for Case 1 and 0:-2 for Case 2.
Last Edit: 2010/01/06 01:13 By Chris.
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